Grappling

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Grappling

Post  Ender on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:38 am

Are you sure about those rules? That makes grappling better than the overpowered version in the basic book in a lot of ways.

*Edit* One way to moderate them would be to allow someone wielding a weapon their weapon attack draw in a grapple (Until their weapon is controlled/disarmed of course). Otherwise a decent grappler auto-defeats a decent swordsman in a 1-1 fight, which is clearly absurd. With the weapon draw the grappler is taking a realistically large risk against a weapon user until they're disarmed.

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Winter on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:56 am

No, we're not sure, hence why we're trialling them, as was stated. Would you care to share your opinions on them and start a discussion?
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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:57 am

Check edit above for suggested mod Smile

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Winter on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:03 pm

Firstly, I don't think it's absurd for someone who is skilled at grappling to stop someone who is wielding a sword from using it if they manage to establish a grapple. In fact, that's exactly how it should work. Naturally, if the grappler is too slow to establish a grapple (i.e. has a lower initiative), they're most likely going to get cut and/or stabbed. The absurd part is that if the grappler is slower and does get stabbed, they can then proceed to grapple. But this is a game, after all.

I also don't think it's fair to say that the grappler would auto defeat a skilled swordsman even if they were able to establish a grapple. Under the standard NWoD rules, where the swordsman is probably only on a chance dice to escape a grapple (which is then immediately re-established on the grappler's next action). Under these rules, where there is a contested draw, the swordsman does have a chance to escape from the grapple. If they do, they're then free to attack with their weapon as normal, assuming that it hasn't already been disarmed. Yes, the grappler still has a strong chance of maintaining the grapple. But then... shouldn't they? In such a struggle, brute strength still matters, but having a knowledge of the body, its pressure points, and ways to hold people *should* give you the advantage, right?

I think the ease of which a grapple can be established is a more relevant concern.

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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:32 pm

As noted by me on the FB group... should we link the 2 discussions?

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:03 am

I suggest the following amendments:

To grab your opponent, roll (Strength + Brawl) – (Defense+Weaponry/Firearms if opponent is armed). On a success, both of you are grappling. If you’ve got a length of rope, a chain, or a whip, you can add its weapon bonus to your Strength when grappling. If you score an exceptional success on this first roll, pick a move from the list below.

The logic behind this is that it's very difficult to grapple someone when you're trying to avoid being shot/stabbed.

Alternatively as suggested by Jason, armed target gets a free attack as you attempt to grapple. This is simpler, but can result in more than 1 attack in a round.


When grappling, each party makes a contested Strength + Brawl or their normal melee/firearms attack pool if using an uncontrolled weapon of Size 1(2J or below perhaps) draw, acting on the higher of the two characters’ Initiative. The winner picks a move from the list below.

At this point, a weapon is not yet controlled but under the current rules they're still effectively unable to use it as their draw is based off brawl. Larger weapons such as swords or a rifle would of course be useless in a grapple, but before the weapon is controlled getting stabbed/shot should be likely if a knife/handgun is involved.


*Edit* Obviously if you use your weaponry/firearms draw you'd be restricted to the do damage option, not any of the alternatives.

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Jeremy Kenning on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:08 am

As Chris mentioned I have suggested that defenders (melee weapon or brawling) could be given a free strike on the initiation of a grapple, covering the inevitable exposure which closing right in for grappling creates.

On further consideration I think that he is right that it is the ease with which a grapple is initiated that is the issue. The actual EFFECT of a grapple is fine and I absolutely disagree with him that allowing attacks while grappled is a good idea.

The question is, how do you deal with the difficulty of grappling?

I think that there is a simple answer, the target number should be the dexterity of the target, minus defense penalty (if any) from armour.

So if I have Dex 4 and am wearing armour with a -1 penalty to defense then the number of successes needed to successfully grapple me is 3.

This also works well as a counterbalance to the advantages of armour over defense, as there is currently no mechanical reason to avoid armour (even with penalties) as it always grants a net gain over defense when worn.

Jeremy Kenning


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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:15 am

That would also be fine as an alternative, with a nice counterbalance to the very heavy armour types. It may make it a little hard to initiate a grapple though, maybe a target number of base defence rather than dexterity as that's on average a little lower?

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Jeremy Kenning on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:22 am

I'd avoid using defense.

It's too easily enhanced in a wide range of ways.

You think Dex is too hard, try hitting someone with the right Contracts if the target is Defense.

Jeremy Kenning


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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:24 am

That's why base defence - armour.

*Edit* I prefer my way but it's more complex. Either way, we pretty much all agree that initiating the grapple should be harder, so I'd suggest that's the first thing to tweak.

Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Olaf White on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:24 pm

Here's the thing: Trying to grapple them should probably be a better option than punching them in the face. Any weaknesses grappling has against a knife, Boxing is worse - at least the grapple means you can TRY to keep the knife away from you.

Also, if you're in plate, you shouldn't get knifed trying to grapple someone. Armour has a very small effect in WoD as a whole... implementing realism piecemeal just shifts the unrealistic elements around.


Anywho. Random thought: the deterrant effect of a knife is lessened by armour. (Strength+Brawl+Armour) - (Defence+Weaponry)?

Olaf White

Age : 31

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Re: Grappling

Post  Olaf White on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:52 am

Did some research: apparently in God Machine Chronicles Defense is (lower of Dexterity or Wits)+Athletics (or Weaponry/Brawl if you have Weaponry Dodge or Brawling Dodge)?

So yeah, as implemented, this house rule makes grappling easier to hit with than the actual GMC rules do. I'd possibly suggest using GMC defense as the defense here (actually, I'd actually recommend flat-out using the God-Machine Chronicles rules for everything if there was a Changeling conversion document out yet).

Olaf White

Age : 31

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Re: Grappling

Post  Ender on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:35 am

Suddenly those rules make a little more sense for grapple, less sense for everything else.

It's really only grapple that's been problematic, given punching is usually a terrible option.

After a bit of thought, the one real reason not to use a threshold above 1 for a successful grapple is that it removes the possibility of a chance draw success... unless grapple was resolved vs no defence and just had to hit the Dex - Armour threshold, meaning you'd never have a chance draw unless you had Str1, Brawl 0 or were injured to the equivalent. In that case I'm OK with you being unable to grapple ever.


Ender


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Re: Grappling

Post  Jeremy Kenning on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:59 pm

I think I'm ok with no chance draw grapples.

I'm not seeing that as a negative consequence.

I take the point on the issue of grappling being less likely to draw OOA than a punch, but still think that a higher target for successful grapple (given the high impact that it has) is sensible.

Jeremy Kenning


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Re: Grappling

Post  Ryder Silverborne on Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:14 am

Glenn Patel wrote:(actually, I'd actually recommend flat-out using the God-Machine Chronicles rules for everything if there was a Changeling conversion document out yet).
There's not at the moment. In fact there are NO "splat" books out for the "Revised" NWOD (The GMC based stuff) yet. Blood and Smoke (The requiem revised) is the first to be released, its all done and due for public release in Nov.
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Re: Grappling

Post  Olaf White on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:04 am

Ender wrote:Suddenly those rules make a little more sense for grapple, less sense for everything else.

It's really only grapple that's been problematic, given punching is usually a terrible option.

After a bit of thought, the one real reason not to use a threshold above 1 for a successful grapple is that it removes the possibility of a chance draw success... unless grapple was resolved vs no defence and just had to hit the Dex - Armour threshold, meaning you'd never have a chance draw unless you had Str1, Brawl 0 or were injured to the equivalent. In that case I'm OK with you being unable to grapple ever.

Oh, I didn't mean to say punching needs weakening; what I meant was that (IRL) it's not safer to punch a guy on the nose than to grapple them - in both cases you're coming into knife range. So the AoO ideas have a weakness in that regard.


Now, about Dexterity-Armour to grapple: there's a reason Wits is calculated into Defense; moving fast is only as useful as your ability to figure out where to move to.

I'm also kinda unsure about the idea that making an all-out attack (or whatever) and setting your Defense to 0 wouldn't make you easier to get a hold of.


Hrm.

(Using GMC for to-hit in general would just about work...)

Olaf White

Age : 31

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Re: Grappling

Post  Jeremy Kenning on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:52 pm

Grappling, of all of the forms of combat, is the most purely physical.

I'm not sure that arguments that other elements should be factored in ring true.

And I'm with Chris on the GMC mods generally, they don't improve things for grappling at all as they stand.

Jeremy Kenning


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Re: Grappling

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